Comments on: How to Build Christian Unity: A Few Steps Forward

By: john r

john r — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 00:07:04 +0000

anyone can believe whatever they chose without discrimination.

what has been hard for me to reconcile is that there has been a disconnection between belief and witness. and this disconnection has become an absolute disregard. from the pope and his magisterium to albert mohler’s christian teachings to joel ostein’s “god’s best”. that although paul in romans wrote we are led and serve of the spirit, christendom continues to be led by doctrine. and although paul said we died to the law with christ and are resurrected to be under grace and not under the law, christendom continues to create new laws based on old understandings and attempt to put other believers under them. the issue of homosexuality is only the tip the iceberg of the holy spirit gradually weening christendom off the old covenant so that eventually they will firmly be planting both feet firmly in the new covenant.

By: Tim Seiger

Tim Seiger — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:00:30 +0000

Well, I do struggle with this and that was the point I wanted to make. Perhaps I have some learing and growing to do but I fear we may be drifting to contentiousness that will be counter productive. So, peace to you.

By: john r

john r — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 17:57:48 +0000

in effect you are saying the fruit of the spirit of christ is the same as the fruit of powers, principalities and satan.

or that love is not love, kindness is not kindness, joy is not joy, peace is not peace.

i have been around those who have believed murder, adultery, and theft were necessary, acceptable choices in life and yes there was little fruit of the spirit in their lives. and their lives were filled with shame, and whoa to the person who revealed it to them.

you appear not to have much have experience in issues about spirit.

surely you are aware that being homosexual means embracing it as a good thing and as an acceptable life choice and to encourage it in the lives of others who are gay. how is it you cannot see the comparison with those who would do the same with murder, adultery, and theft………. or any of the other acts of the sin nature of galatians 5……………..and then note comparative difference of the fruit of the spirit in their lives.

again where the spirit rests is indicative of what is approved by god, because everything that is good comes from heaven.

By: Tim Seiger

Tim Seiger — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 15:14:41 +0000

Ok, I see where you are going here. I am a little thick sometimes, sorry. But here’s the thing. I am wanting to argue that we need not break fellowship with a homosexual because we disagree about what the bible says about homosexuality. But on the flip side I can’t say that I am convinced that because a homosexual’s life experience or good motives in relation to that behavior bring him or her to the place where they believe the Spirit is validating their experience that we should automatically accept that individual’s experience as normative. In fact it seems to me a significant point of a community hermeneutic approach is to help an individual to avoid falling prey to his or her own emotions or experiences as the solely legitimating force for their convictions and commitments. A theology built on my experience and strongly felt emotional commitments would be a dangerouse one indeed because I am aware of what is inside of me. This is not to diminish the power of those experiences or emotions which are extraordinarily powerful and life shaping forces. And let me say again, these disagreements should not cause us to break fellowship with these believers or deny them the very grace we rely on in relation to what others may see as our mistaken beliefs, like the belief that homosexual behavior is wrong.

By: john r

john r — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 14:46:14 +0000

bottom line

homosexulity is about someone one wanting to have a one flesh relationship with another of the same sex since ones earliest sexual memory, out of mutual love, devotion, affection, and trust for a committed shared life together.

jesus said you would recognize them by their fruit.

believing homosexual marriages are filled with the fruit of the spirit in the same way as believing heterosexual marriages. does not where the spirit of christ rests determine what is approved by god?

would you chose to trump this with biblical legalities.

bottom line

everything that is required in order to believe homosexuality is a sin comes against christ.

crediting oneself with knowing the mind of god, not honoring another life experiences, not giving witness to the presence of the spirit or the fruit of the spirit, allowing belief be an obstacle of fellowship, not crediting another for their faith, and christ living in them as well(being a brother in christ).

By: Tim Seiger

Tim Seiger — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 01:47:23 +0000

no problem with the intensity, I like passion . I don’t think one can assume belief is in God generally. I only spoke generally in the context of these posts about “belief” being in the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob and the revealed word of God.

While I certainly believe in the witness of the Spirit for believers and affirm the significance of the community or fellowship of believers to sort through issues pertaining to faith I also am aware that I, at least, am not always as sensitive to the spirit as I should be so I assume others have the same issue and this can complicate things especially when coupled with the emotion that comes with some issues. But I don’t think we can be cloudy about the center which is Jesus out which we all must find that unity. As we move out from that center there is honest disagreement but also I think there is willful obscurantism. So Jesus reminds that is not for us to sort the wheat from the weeds (Matthew 13)because in the process we might uproot the wheat.

By: john r

john r — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 00:53:53 +0000

sorry about my intensity. the one thing i dont hear in your understanding about fellowship is that it involves honoring another’s life experiences

tim

belief can be generational. and surely the church is society. society is the church. is one to assume because one has a belief that one is to assume that the belief is of god.

ithess 5:21 test everything , keep the good. what other test can there be for a believer other than witness of spirit thru the one who lives in each believer to validate an understanding of scripture. does not where the spirit rests testify what god approves. what other valid witness can there be, our than one of walking in the light.

By: Tim Seiger

Tim Seiger — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 00:21:01 +0000

hmm…I am not sure we need to see an issue together to have unity. I agree that Christ is the center around which we are to have unity but I am not sure that suspended belief serves any useful purpose. The exception to that would be if one’s belief drives a non-christlike behavior toward anyone and in fact creates dis-unity. I think it is possible to disagree and maintain unity. This is the tension I felt in your post Ed. When does my belief about a particular issue actaully become non-christlike in its expression and perhaps thereby call into question whether the belief is in fact of faith or of some human construction laid on top of a biblical faith. It is a huge question that requires a brutally honest self-evaluation that I am not sure many, myself included, are willing (able?) to engage in.

By: ed

ed — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 19:50:50 +0000

I hear ya.

I think I didn’t flesh out this angle of things enough, especially because the Spirit is at the backbone of Christianity. However, my last paragraph really is pointing things in that direction to a certain degree. I just didn’t take it any further because, well, the post seemed long enough. To be honest, I really did end on the exact point you accused me of ignoring. In fact, your comment kind of feels like an inquisition.

I’m willing to admit that I didn’t develop that idea well at all, but I also ask for grace here because I ended with the intention of saying that our unity comes in relationship with God, as in, if we’re united with God we’ll be united together. I may have failed to communicate that, but it was not an intentional failure.

So perhaps I need think of a follow up post. I agree that our unity comes from the work of God’s Spirit. See my previous comment here (which I think also proves that I didn’t “ignore” the Spirit here).

Thanks for your contribution here. Lots to talk about!

By: john r

john r — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 18:18:37 +0000

why do you ignore the spirit that lives in yourself and each believer. why do you place your beliefs in front of both parties seeing the truth together thru the fellowship of walking in the light.(1john1)

in other words in the presence of a believing homosexual consider suspending your belief…………..immediately………..and trust in christ thru his fellowship that thru the holy spirit whatever needs to be seen will be seen together with this gay believer who also has cofessed christ to be his savior and shares your same inheritance.

that belief is centered around the concept of “i”. “i believe in this”
“i believe in that”, while fellowship and trust in christ is centered around and is therefore of christ.